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I have not made a knife yet but am interested in making a dagger.
I have heard of peopole making knives out of old leaf springs or files and thought that would be an easy first knife to make.
Thought I would see what you all think.
I have heard of peopole making knives out of old leaf springs or files and thought that would be an easy first knife to make.
Thought I would see what you all think.
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Re: dagger
10/23I would steer clear of files if I were you. They're often more trouble than they're worth. Leaf springs are fine as a material, but they're too big to make anything smaller than, say, a kukuri. See if you can get a hold of any large coil springs; it's alot easier to work with round stock. Otherwise, you might consider using an old chisel. I suppose the most important thing to consider aside from your starting material is your grinding apparatus. What do you plan to use? -
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Re: dagger
10/24What would you recomend?
I was thinking a bench grinder. I dont have one yet but could use one.... but would you recomend something else? -
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Re: dagger
10/25i made my first knife out of a railroad spike it is really nice to work with and if you het treat it right it will hold an edge you would not believe :-) and if you have rr tracks near you they are free............as for grinding a bench grinder is good but keep a coars wheel and a fine wheel handy or on the same one makes finish work a little simpler :-) i discoverd (being one to keep it as old school as possable) that hand filing a piece sux lol. -
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Re: dagger
10/25Yeah.....
I figured on a bench grinder them maybe stones... dunno.
Thanks for the railroad spike idea...I think I have one. -
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Re: dagger
01/28Be sure the spike has an "HC" or someting similar on the head. These are better knife metal that the ones without it. An HC and a non-HC are a good hammer welding / damascus lesson. Learn some hammer control workinig the heads outs, welding (with borax flux), layering (either folding or hot cut and stack), different type of hammer control drawing out the bilet, re-welding, deforming etc. Atfer its forged into a blade, heat treated it will etch in hot vinegar. Cool thing is if you completely cook the metal learning, you've destroyed a couple of railroad spikes, oh well.
Doesn't make the greatest of knives and the pattern is faint, but it will harden to a degree, not a horror show to put an edge on it (the perenial trade off... easy to sharpen / shapen often), materials are easy to work, and very inexpenisve, partial, sort of tiragngluar shaped tang to be hot fit into a wooden round then carved for a handle (refit wuith epoxy if necessary)..... viola.... generic "eating knife" in hand forged pattern welded damascus. (great if you cook in a fire pit often). And if you are willing to forgo anealling and only normalize before the quench, it can be done in a day. (That willl also teach you why annealing is imporant as you reheat to critical to remove the warp).
This is what I learned on... took three tries to get a knife, but 4 wasted spikes and some borax for the laundry isle made for inexpensive lessons. The whole thing was a great confidence builder as well.
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Re: dagger
01/20Are you planning to forge or to do stock reduction?
An *old* file of good quality would work, but many newer ones have steel that is too exotic for simple methods - or are just plain junk steel. My very first attempt at knife forging was with a modern imported file. It fell apart in the forge. Red-shortness is a pain! I was later able to make a servicable blade from a rusty old Nicholson file (vintage circa 1950's).
If you can find some industrial bandsaw material, that would likely be good - much of it is L6, 1095, or 15N20. I was able to score a few feet about 1.5" wide a couple years back from a buddy who worked in a fab shop. -
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Re: dagger
01/20Becareful when using bandsaw blades - many of the new ones are bimetal blades and will behave oddly in a forge.
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Re: dagger
01/25el_tortugo,
Double - edged is more difficult, especially if you want a perect, matching ridge or fuller and both sides. You may want to start with a single - edged project fisrt.
Old files and leaf spring are both good for making knives, just anneal them well and pay close attentiion for stress damage ( which isn't always visable to the naked eye... a jewelers loupe helps, but isn't perfect either).
Modern coil springs also work, but many are an 4160, which isn't the greatest. Bearing races work really well, but the alloy 52100 needs to be worked at a very high temp or it gets ugly fast and even at the above critical point it is still hard to move.
Maybe the easiest way to insure getting good steel is to by new stock..... 1095 and 5160 both majke very goood knives and are rather easy to work. the 560 is a bit more rust resistent due to the solution hardnening inherent in the alloy, and also a bit more expensive. 1095 is just strait high carbon steel. Another alloy which is good is 15n20, basically 1075 stell with a whole lot of nickle, is pretty rust resistent and moves easily.
Generaly speaking, sans a variable or two, the more difficult the steel moves under the hammer, the harder it will become through heat treating. This is not always true, depending on the alloy, but if you stay away from re bar and "mystry metals", it is a good general assumption. Remeber if you get a knife blade realy hard, it will hold an edge very well, but be very hard to sharpen. If you get them too hard, chipping and breaking are possibilities.
Last, if you are just startiing out, really try to minimize you relience on machines.... you skills will grow much faster if you are not think... " Well I can fix this part on the grinder and that that of with a cut off tool...."
Speed safely and good luck
Quinn -
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Re: dagger
01/26I would steer clear of the 52100. I know its a popular steel among makers, but **proper** heat treat of 52100 is a royal PITA without salt tanks. Magnets just don't cut it. I don't care what Ed says.
5160 on the other hand, is a very good steel for beginners. When the magnet won't stick, go one more color change and dunk in the oil. Presto.
I'll also echo what Quinn says about minmalisation of tools. Wayne Goddard sums it up nicely: "If it can't be learned with simple tools and methods it may not be possible to learn it with more "high-tech" equipment. The cold, hard facts are that the latest and best technology will not replace years of practice with simple tools." -
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Re: dagger
01/26"The cold, hard facts are that the latest and best technology will not replace years of practice with simple tools."
True but somethings, as hobbyists, can't be learned that way - we lack the patience to do that much practicing. Hand sharpening is an example, at least with water stones. Water stones are expensive and wear quickly, especially the coarse ones one needs to use to put a rough edge on a knife. Here a grinder (especially a low speed wet belt sander) works well - the principles don't change, materials are cheaper (in theory) and it is faster.
Admittedly, a low speed wet belt sander for a home shop has to be made. Fortunately it is not hard, buy a cheap benchtop belt sander (got mine from Sears for $70), take it apart then build a water tank for the platten to be in then change the pully ratios so it runs at a low speed (<400 fpm). Low speed = safer and more control; wet = self cleaning and low heat so you don't mess up the temper. Although it takes some looking, 3M sells diamond wet belts from 100 to 50000 grit (165 to 0.5 micron). Pricey but they will last a long time and get you the finish you want be it satin or mirror polished (yes, a mirror polish without a buffing wheel). -
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Re: dagger
01/27Didn't have time to read it all, but I do know about it. Less expensive but still very slow from final forged peice to sharp knife. Great for resharpening a knife ;) Also lapping films (<10 micron diamond films) are available for the very fine finish and polishing steps. Even for those who don't like mirror polished knives, using the polishing films provides a superior edge if the knife has been hardened enough so that it won't roll from use. Most commerial knives are now where near hard enough to make it worth wild to finish that finely. Truely great for wood working tools.
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Re: dagger
01/28I don't know who "Ed" is, but I agree with you on the heat treat..... I use it beacuse I have a nearly infinite, free supply of it. Considering free steel with no shipping, and it isn't so bad coming close to perfect with good results.... I take the trade off, but that's just me. Salt tanks scare the hell out of me... one drop of moisture and things get really ugly really fast.... almost a scary as the crushed dry ice / acetone cold process which will work on top end stainless...... -
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Re: dagger
01/28Free is a very good price! Large supplies allow for extensive experimentation. In similar situation I would be tempted to do the same thing.
In the absence of thermocouples or other pyrometers, we have to trust the magnet. The magnet is pretty accurate for simpler steels on the left side of eutectoid (5160, 1060, 4340, and such). Anything to the right of eutectoid (O-1, 52100, 1095, etc) demands either experimentation or tight temperature controls. Or both. :)
It is for this reason that I reccommend hypoeutectoid steels for the beginner. 5160 is often availabe where "spring steel" is sold. 1060, 1070 and the like can often be had as "plow steel" of various grades.
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