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I'm in a bladesmithing class and would like some feasability feedback on an idea for a knife. I wanted to include a sketch but it doesn't appear that tribe will allow it.
Anyway, I like the idea of knives made out a single peice of metal (hilt and blade). To do that the hilt needs to be thick enough to comforatably hold (~3/8 to 3/4"), but that would be a lot of hard to work tool steel which truthfully the hilt doesn't need to be made of. For this knife, I would like to forge a pommel onto it which would be a little thicker and wider than the hilt. To do this, I was thinking of welding together a peice of mild steel (say 1020 or 1030) and a peice of 1080, then folding that in half followed by welding. That way I get a soft core (easy to work) with a hard edge and can have the mass of metal to form the hilt with pommel. I know this can be done, but for a beginner like myself am I trying to do to much?
Thanks for the feedback.
Anyway, I like the idea of knives made out a single peice of metal (hilt and blade). To do that the hilt needs to be thick enough to comforatably hold (~3/8 to 3/4"), but that would be a lot of hard to work tool steel which truthfully the hilt doesn't need to be made of. For this knife, I would like to forge a pommel onto it which would be a little thicker and wider than the hilt. To do this, I was thinking of welding together a peice of mild steel (say 1020 or 1030) and a peice of 1080, then folding that in half followed by welding. That way I get a soft core (easy to work) with a hard edge and can have the mass of metal to form the hilt with pommel. I know this can be done, but for a beginner like myself am I trying to do to much?
Thanks for the feedback.
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Portland
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Troy,
If you can hammer weld / forge weld the project isn't out of range, is just a matter of time and patients. If you are fueling with charcoal, reheats are bacicaly limitless, so it bomes a matter of how much time you want to invest. Charcoal is a little slower, but there is much less risk of burning the carbon out of the steel with reheats than in a gas forge, and there is no sulfide / brittleness problem from too many reheats in coal.
If I have an acurate picture in my mind from what you discribe, is sounds like the knife will be backside heavy unless you are putting on hell of a blade out front. A rivet then weld technique may work well for what you are trying: you end up with a single, solid piece, but can build it via components, a bit messy if you are using borax as a flux, but it does work. Basic finishing nails work well for the rivets, (hot fitting the additional pieces helps with snugness), then riveting, then welding. If you etch this afterward, the rivit will show itself dull in luster and dark. {think hammering on the pommel at near critical while the tang is at black heat, heat, punch slightly small, drive the rivet in and trim, heat, flux, to welding temp, weld}. I have fit guards this way...is a pain in the butt, but very effective, and I like the look exposed welded-in rivet against a high nickle alloy guard.
You may also want to look at the fitting of "Viking" sword pommels, and the gaurd technique used there ae well. may give you some ideas.
As for the pic posting... don't really know, but maybe putting it up in the free web space your ISP probably provides with your account, then posting a link to it may work. (or even in a yahell or some similar free web space)
Am curious, send me a email here with the pic if you would.
Good Luck and Speed Safely,
Quinn -
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From your reply, I think you get the idea. I forgot to mention that it will be a double-edged blade. Overall, a mini-version of a viking sword. Yes it probably will be backside heavy, though the blade will be thick along the centerline. The pommel will be as much of a weapon as the blade itself - that was part of the idea.
For the welding I will need help - which may com in the form of conviental welding. Need to run the idea past the instructor.
If I don't do it this way, I will do a screwed on pommel onto a blade/hilt out of tool steel. When done I will post a photo of it and the other blades I make in the class. -
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Have you considered a handle with large open space(s) in the middle to partially correct the point of balance?
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Yes, but to do that I have to learn from my mistakes. I hope to have more metal in the blade than the hilt, but this is still part of a beginning project. We will see how it turns out.
Understand, please, that although one learns from one's mistakes - one learns much faster when the mistake is planned ;)
A hilt design for later will use a twisted bundle of rods like one sees on fireplace tools. That will lessen the weight of the hilt. Another answer to the problem is to use a smaller square bar of metal for the hilt but twist it so that its actual diameter is larger (which is part of the plan for this one). Even more effective is to use a twisted rectanglur bar (cross-section), but that maybe uncomfortable to hold.
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If you are doing a "viking Sowrd" handle, regardless of the blade you put it front of it, use the traditonal technique.... simple, effective, "step-by-steps-how-to"'s all over the web. The technique was developed over centuries by truly amazing smiths who could not afford to waste iron, never mind steel. The fluted square rod idea for a handle would work well, if you drill it after it is fluted, ... could be attached as a wooden handle would be.
The twisted basket is a good place to learn to forge / hammer weld. use small "u-bolts ( as for car exhausts) to hold then togeater as you weld the end and twist and form the basket. I f you are doing this though, might as well weld a bar with the reamining rod, twitst really tight, flatten and forge the blade form the resulting "cable damacus". Have never made one of these, but have seen many. The unwelded rods can be manipulated to form the gaurd prior to welding up for the blade.
Am thinking if you put a short "tang" on the pommel and fit it into the rods to be used as a twisted basket handle and then weld the rods in the forge, you cuold get just what you are looking for without the mass distribution problems. Pommel welded into place, twisted basket handle, manipulate in the guard, weld up the remaining rod, twist tight, forge blade... "single piece" construction in a sence. Use a nickle alloy and some top side 10 serise stell and you'll get a pretty blade and new skills in the package. -
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Hammer welding isn't hard if you stay with aloys close to none another. Two different 10 seris steel will weld as easily as two pieces of the same 10 series for the most part. You realy dont get into difficulties until you are welding up alloys dence with solution hardening like 52100, etc. 15n20 is basically 1075 with a lot if nickle in it, welds well to all 10 series steels, even with "normal borax" (form the laundry detergent isle in most grocery stores).
Most related web formus will have a et of instructions. Looks a bit magicaly and intimidating, but is only careful attention to details (clean, well fluxed and correct temp, gentle with a heavy hammer). I use a #4 driller with a domed face and pretty much drop it from 12- 16 inches onto the billet on a rather light anvil. Not much force needed, and too much force will blow the weld apart with the "enertia reflection" from the anvil.
The heavy hammer gently allows the mass of the hammer to rest on the bilet longer before it is pushed back by the refection of force from the mass of the anvil. This way each drop of the hammer is actually striking twice in a sence, onec as the force passes through the billet form the hammer to the anvil, and once as the refected froce travel back through the billlet to the hammer (whick is acting like a smalll anvil) before it is bounced upward.
A copule hours abusing some spikes or 10 series scape is all you will probably need to be able to do it effectively.
Have seen many variations of the style of knife you are desribing. "Vinging Sword Dagger" in the 16 in range usually. They are kind of cool looking, but have always wondered why they were never made from the Migration Period through the Viking Age. They had the iron and steel and the skill to manipulate it, had double edge technologly, and the need for a good knife, yet relied upon a single edged blade as a dagger / knife. These knives were often rather large and sometime refered to as " poor man's swords" due to the balace problem when they became loarger and longer. Only conculion I have ever been able to come to on the issue is that the need to pucture chain maiile haden't arrived yet, so the "hack-n-slash" blade worked just fine and was easier to make.
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